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'Status Seekers' vs. 'Storytellers'?

  • Jul. 23rd, 2009 at 10:21 AM
Wonder Woman
I've just started reading The Fire In Fiction by Donald Maass, and already I have something to think about. He says:

I feel that novelists fall into two broad categories: those whose desire is to be published, and those whose passion is to spin stories. I think of these as status seekers and storytellers.


He goes into a little more detail about these terms, with examples from his experience as an agent and workshop leader, but I think the meaning is implicit.

Maass also says:

You would think that at long last finding an agent who says yes, it's time to show your novel to publishers would relax the status seeker's anxiety for validation, but that isn't true. Generally speaking, authors are never more work than during the submissions process. It is normal to want updates on how submissions are going, but with status seekers the process can get nutty.


I read that and immediately felt myself contract - my stomach tightened and I felt quite annoyed. I am on submission with my agent and, in these tough times, things are going slowly. It's true, I ask for updates and guidance on future projects, but does this make me a 'status seeker'? Surely not! I'm not hard work as a client. Nope. Not me... ;)

And then I thought about it and decided to heed the advice of my horoscope this morning: Don't take things so personally.

Maybe I do ask for regular updates, and I'm certainly not ashamed to admit to a deep desire to see my work published... Am I a 'status seeker' because of that? Isn't it normal for writers to seek validation? Of course it would be wonderful if we could all find that validation within ourselves, but we are only human.

But I also know that - at heart - no matter what happens on the publishing side of things I am (I hope) a born storyteller. It's something I have to do in order to be happy, and I wonder why it took me so long to figure that out. Isn't it always the case, that the most obvious solution to our problems is the very last one we turn to? :) Even while I'm working on revisions for one project I'm already thinking of more ways to improve another, while also planning a completely new book. My imagination is spinning stories too fast for me to write down.

I think I will always tell stories - published or not - because this is what I have to do. I'm glad Mr. Maass got me thinking about this last night; it's good to remember why we write.
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Comments

( 42 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]jimhines wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 02:19 pm (UTC)
It's very possible to fall into both categories at once. Personally, I really like telling the stories. But I'd be lying if I said my ego didn't enjoy the status of being a published author. (Even if that status is far less glamorous than most people think.)

You're a writer. You're human. Welcome to the club :-)
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 02:25 pm (UTC)
Yes, exactly! It's not always black & white, is it? Never simple... Because we're human beings. :)

I went to an event recently where you were given pre-printed name tags. Mine said: "Karen Mahoney, Author". I felt really embarrassed, because they only were doing that based on me having an agent & one story coming out in an anthology this month. I felt, somehow, like a fraud. But I'll also admit that a small part of me liked how librarians and other attendees approached me with interest because of that (literal) label. Hmm... Food for thought!
[info]brian_ohio wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 02:30 pm (UTC)
What's the point of being a storyteller if you have no one to tell the story to?

Using the word 'storyteller' isn't correct. 'Writer' should be used instead. IMO.
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 02:43 pm (UTC)
I like that you're back commenting. :)

And that's a good point. I've only read 5 pages of this book, and already I have a ton to think about!
[info]triciasullivan wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 02:43 pm (UTC)
I don't know. It's an interesting observation, but not one that rings true to me--then again, I'm not an agent!

My sense is that some people are needier than others, regardless of how status-seeking they may or may not be. I lived with someone who was briefly an agent. He had a few clients, and they would ring him. Frequently. To check on things. And talk. There was hand-holding. There was bonding. There was dissection of rejection letters. If he'd had twenty or thirty clients like this, there never would have been time for anything else. I wouldn't have said that these people were particularly status-seeking, as writers go. Or non-storytellers. They were just needy. Others were much more professional and didn't treat him like a personal nurse.

I'm not suggesting writers should be pests, but I certainly think that it's important to be your own advocate, as long as that stays within the bounds of professional courtesy and overall good judgement. I find it surprising to think that so-called 'status seekers' aren't possessed of the ability to stay within bounds as well as the next guy.



[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 08:29 pm (UTC)
This is a REALLY great point re. neediness. I have to fight that urge within myself all the time... *g* But luckily, my better sense, judgement and professionalism wins out most of the time. I admit not ALL of the time, though. But yeah, more food for thought.

And again, a huge YES to the part about being your own advocate. I think most good agents would encourage that in their clients - mine does. :)
[info]jayewells wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 02:58 pm (UTC)
I read Fire in Fiction few months ago and had the same reaction. The stomach clench, the moment of panic, the doubt. But then I remembered that everything about this industry is crafted to foster insecurity in the writer. The need for validation comes along with the very urge to share stories. Otherwise, why try to publish at all?
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 08:43 pm (UTC)
I know! We're basically all just neurotic basket cases, right? ;)

Heh. But seriously, good point re. how the need for validation comes along with the urge to share stories. It comes hand-in-hand.
[info]daphnegrab wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 03:17 pm (UTC)
i agree about it not being so black and white. i love writing stories but i also want to have a career doing it and wanting that means caring about how a sale is going. i fully acknowledge that it's a thrill to tell people i have a book out but if that thrill was all i got out of it i'd have stopped ages ago. i also have to say i'm not sure how much status most writers get- i feel like most people do it for love of writing.
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 09:16 pm (UTC)
Yes, exactly - I want a career too, so I can do the thing I love full time. Which of course means selling books! :)

And I feel thrilled just thinking about my anthology story. Imagine what I'll be like one day when I sell a novel... Heh.
[info]sartorias wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 03:17 pm (UTC)
I have to shake my head. He's describing two types of person out of an infinite variety, including in one writer at given times in their life. To divide them like that? No, and no.
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 09:17 pm (UTC)
Right. I bet an average writer (if there is such a thing!) swings from one end of the 'scale' to the other and back again, all in the same day. ;)
[info]robinellen wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 03:21 pm (UTC)
Okay, I had a snarky response (to him, not you) but decided it was too much for this lovely Thursday morning :)
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 09:18 pm (UTC)
Heh. I'd love to know what that comment would've been... ;)
[info]alankria wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 03:34 pm (UTC)
I've heard people split writers between 'those who love writing' and 'those who love having written'. And I am definitely both.
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 09:18 pm (UTC)
Yes, both. And at different times, depending on any number of factors. :)
[info]stillnotbored wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 03:57 pm (UTC)
I feel that novelists fall into two broad categories: those whose desire is to be published, and those whose passion is to spin stories. I think of these as status seekers and storytellers.

There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to start. Seriously. It is also an example of why I stopped reading agent blogs and I shun advice to writers books. All they do is feed insecurities and I can do that quite well on my own, thank you.

A desire to write for publication doesn't make you a status seeker. I personally write because I have stories to tell and I want others to read them. The number one way to allow people to read my stories is to be published. Publication is a means, not a goal in itself.

[sarcasm] And what, prey tell, do we call agents who spend more time teaching seminars, making appearances at cons and conventions, and writing books to usher writers into the secret society of publishing than they do working for their clients? [/sarcasm]

I'll let you decide.

[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 09:36 pm (UTC)
I agree with you re. all the industry blogs - it can get to be too much input & I end up getting confused!

I want to make a career out of my love of telling stories, which means it would serve me to be able to do it full time. Which, um... of course means I'd need to be published and make a living from it. I don't equate a desire to be published with being someone who seeks status, definitely not. :)
[info]stillnotbored wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 09:38 pm (UTC)
And looking at my comment again, learning to type would be a good idea too....gah.
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 09:45 pm (UTC)
Heh. :)
[info]phoenixfirewolf wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 04:39 pm (UTC)
Interesting. I was briefly worried that I'd be one of those status seekers... but then I thought, as you did, would I continue writing if I wasn't published? My answer was yes. I love to write and I go crazy when I'm not doing it. I want to get published, but mostly so I can do what I love on a full time basis :)

(I do want some validation, but that's more on a personal level)

And besides, you're published and did a damn good job with that story.

Ugh, and I still haven't done a review. Stupid moving anyway.
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 10:06 pm (UTC)
Of course we all want validation - in ALL areas of our life, right? Which, as writers, includes writing. :)

And thanks again for giving ME validation on Falling to Ash. *hugs*
[info]phoenixfirewolf wrote:
Jul. 24th, 2009 12:10 am (UTC)
*hugs back*

^^
[info]jordansummers1 wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 04:53 pm (UTC)
He's very good at getting people to think. I had the pleasure of attending one of his workshops and got a tremendous amount out of it. I do think there are two types of writers like he says, but I also think the story-tellers quickly turn into the other half when their book is out on submission. They want validation just as much as the status seekers do. I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but I've never met them. *g*
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 10:09 pm (UTC)
That need for validation is ingrained, isn't it? :)

When did you go to one of DM's workshops? I'd be interested to hear about that some time.
[info]jordansummers1 wrote:
Jul. 24th, 2009 02:36 am (UTC)
Yes, that need runs deep.

I attended his writer's weekend a couple of years ago. I'd seen him speak on several occasions and liked what he had to say. I really liked his book, "Writing the Breakout Novel". I bought it and the workbook that went with it.
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 24th, 2009 11:19 am (UTC)
I read those books and did enjoy them - found the workbook the better of the two, although I never really felt I employed (m)any of his techniques.

I'll let you know about the new one. :)
[info]jordansummers1 wrote:
Jul. 24th, 2009 04:07 pm (UTC)
Kaz, It helped to go through the workbook in the workshop. The workshop was built around Writing the Breakout Novel. The purpose of it is to get you thinking about the book on a deeper level. And for that, it works well. I don't use it to construct my books, but I have picked it up to remind me what questions I need to be asking.

One of the best books I've ever read that helped my writing tremendously was Immediate Fiction by Jerry Cleaver. Really helps with understanding scene and structure without boring you to tears.
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 25th, 2009 05:57 pm (UTC)
I've never heard of that book - thanks for the rec. :)
[info]jordansummers1 wrote:
Jul. 26th, 2009 12:04 am (UTC)
You're welcome. :)
[info]faerie_writer wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 04:54 pm (UTC)
Well, guess I'm just a status seeking storyteller then. Heh, heh. ;)
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 10:09 pm (UTC)
LOL!!! :D *high five*
[info]dan_phi wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 05:54 pm (UTC)
You've already received lots of comments that I agree with as far as guessing that most authors are really both. So my questions are: Does this mean you finished the other three books you just posted as your reading list? And was this one already in your TBR pile? :)
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 10:11 pm (UTC)
Haha... Very funny. ;) Of course, this one WAS already in my TBR pile - it's been there for a few weeks - and I'm not counting non-fiction. So there. Heh. I can't count it, because I'm always dipping into non-fic books for research...
[info]lazy_iris wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 05:57 pm (UTC)
Hey! I found you through sjmaas' journal. This is such an interesting post, and it's so true. I definitely don't think that wanting to know how the status of your submissions (congrats, by the way, on making it that far!!!) makes you a status seeker.

Great post!
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 10:12 pm (UTC)
Thank you! Welcome to my regular ramblings... :)

It's a long journey towards publication, but I'm enjoying all the things I'm learning on the way. And I *do* love writing and getting better at it (I hope).
[info]elarasophia wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 06:59 pm (UTC)
I started reading this book this week, too, and when I got to that part about status-seekers, I thought, "Yup, that definitely isn't me". The reason I was so confident about it is the same reason that I think you should be, too - as you said, "I'm already thinking of more ways to improve another". You're trying to improve, you're always looking for ways to learn, you're always reading new books and getting feedback on them from people around you (on LJ) and you're never just sitting back and saying, right, that's it for my part. There's absolutely no way on Earth that you'll be the same writer in five years' time that you are today, and that to me is the definitive proof that you're not a status-seeker in the sense that Maass defines it.
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 10:22 pm (UTC)
Hey, thanks so much for pointing that out to me. I really, really appreciate it - and you put this so eloquently. Yes, I do want to improve. Every day I try harder. If I were the same writer in five years' time I might as well just give up on myself. I want to be the best I can possibly be, and that will take a lifetime. :)

Thanks. Really.
[info]danfaust wrote:
Jul. 23rd, 2009 10:53 pm (UTC)
Just because you want your stories to be read and enjoyed doesn't make you a "status-seeker."

I've met people who are only in this for the wealth and fame. They want to be lauded. They want to win awards and be recognized on the street. They want to be considered the brilliant successor of (insert author's name here). In my opinion, those are the wrong reasons to do anything.

Back when Stephen King "retired", a reporter asked him what he was going to do. He said, even if he never published another book ever again, he would still write every day. It was what he did. What he liked to do. He couldn't imagine getting up in the morning and not writing.

That's why we write. We have to. It's what we were put here to do.
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 24th, 2009 11:20 am (UTC)
Yes, I know what you mean about people who want to be lauded and recognized. I mean, everyone has their own way of doing things and we're all different, but that's not MY way. At least, I hope not! :)

"That's why we write. We have to. It's what we were put here to do."

I might pin that over my workspace. Um... when I actually GET a 'real' workspace. *g*
[info]inkstaind_stars wrote:
Jul. 24th, 2009 03:24 am (UTC)
Very thought-provoking post--and comments! I HAVE met writers who I'd classify as purely status seekers. They're usually the ones who don't read, and who are only interested in writing what's "hot" at the moment. They don't care about telling stories so much as they do seeing their name on the cover of a book.

When I was an editor, I worked with an author who asked me which books sold the most. I told her that the steamier UF and romance books tended to sell more, and she said, "Okay, that's what I'll write." The partial she later submitted to me was a mess, and when I rejected it, she admitted that she hated fantasy and was uncomfortable writing sex scenes.

Granted, she's an extreme example of what Maas is talking about. But I do think there's SOME truth in what he's saying.

Okay, now that I've written a thesis here *g*... The more time I spend focusing on the publishing side of things--the blogs, reading the latest deals, etc.--the more I've turned into a status seeker type. Only recently when I got a brutal rejection and was actually unable to write for more than a month did I start to remember WHY I'd started writing to begin with.

The business part of publishing can suck a person's joy and creativity right out of them. I think it actually creates what Maas calls status seekers.

But then I haven't read his book, so maybe I'm way off?
[info]kaz_mahoney wrote:
Jul. 24th, 2009 11:24 am (UTC)
I don't mind a thesis in comments - this is really interesting! Thanks for sharing your experience as an editor, although I understand that's an extreme example. Still something to think about.

You make a good point, though, that sometimes it take something we see as negative (to begin with), like that brutal rejection, to shake us up and force us to remember why we're in this game to begin with. And yes, what a great thought - that the growing obsession wtih the business side of things (trendspotting, etc.) can truly "suck a person's joy and creativity right out of them." *shudders* I can recongnise this, and hopefully I've pulled away from that way of thinking. I'm writing what I love.

Well, I've only read the introduction so far! I'll let you know about the rest. All this great material and food for thought from just the intro. :)

Thanks again for your reply. Oh, and I love that icon.
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